Feb. 18, 2025

So You Want Goats? The Messy Truth of Goat Ownership with Deborah Niemann

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Season 3

Thinking about owning goats? Forget the picture-perfect Instagram posts—goat ownership is messy, demanding, and far from easy. In this episode of Muddy Paws and Hairballs, goat expert and homesteader Deborah Niemann debunks common myths and reveals what it really takes to raise happy, healthy goats.

We dive into essential topics every prospective goat owner needs to know:

  • Goats are not house pets—understanding their unique behaviors
  • Complex (and costly) nutritional needs for proper goat care
  • The long-term commitment goat ownership requires
  • Fencing and shelter must-haves to prevent your goats from escaping
  • Finding a knowledgeable veterinarian experienced in goat care
  • Goat personalities: their quirks, emotions, and social needs
  • Top resources for learning about goat care, including courses and education

Whether you're dreaming of fresh goat milk, homemade cheese, or just curious about life with goats, Deborah’s candid insights and expert advice will help you make informed decisions before taking the leap into goat ownership.

🔗 Learn more about Deborah, her resources, and her podcast at:
Thrifty Homesteader
Deborah’s book on Amazon
For the Love of Goats Podcast on Apple

Comment on this episode! For questions or if you need a reply- please email us at Amy@StarlightPetTalk.com

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Thanks for listening to Muddy Paws and Hairballs, your go-to resource for all things pet care. From dog training, behavior, and socialization to cat enrichment, pet adoption, and tackling behavior problems, we provide expert advice and real talk to help you create a happy, healthy life with your pets. Whether you're dealing with dog anxiety, looking for puppy training tips, or exploring enrichment ideas for your cat, we've got you covered. Be sure to check out all our episodes!

Chapters

00:02 - Goat Reality Check

03:13 - Goat Ownership Realities

15:22 - Goat Ownership Considerations

24:14 - Goat Care and Veterinary Considerations

35:06 - Choosing a Pet Goat

Transcript
WEBVTT

00:00:02.205 --> 00:00:03.347
Oh, you think you want a goat.

00:00:03.347 --> 00:00:04.230
How cute.

00:00:04.230 --> 00:00:05.392
Bless your heart.

00:00:05.392 --> 00:00:21.190
And for those of you not from Texas, bless your heart is not a blessing, it's a Texan's nice way of saying you're an idiot Because you're picturing lazy afternoons with your little goat buddies frolicking in the yard, nibbling grass, like some Pinterest perfect farm fantasy.

00:00:21.190 --> 00:00:29.527
Well, buckle up, buttercup, because today we're going to smack that goat delusion right out of you like a 200-pound buck in full run.

00:00:29.588 --> 00:00:30.710
Goats are not dogs.

00:00:30.710 --> 00:00:36.082
They don't fetch, they don't cuddle and they sure as hell don't care about your feelings, unless you've got a pocket full of food.

00:00:36.082 --> 00:00:45.587
They scream like banshees, they annihilate all vegetation and other things in their path and they can escape from fences that could hold back SEAL Team 6.

00:00:45.587 --> 00:00:50.133
And yet people keep making horrible goat-related life choices.

00:00:50.133 --> 00:00:57.720
That's why today I am joined by Debra Neiman, homesteader, goat expert and host of the podcast For the Love of Goats.

00:00:57.720 --> 00:01:08.072
Debra has seen it all, from dreamers who think they're getting a backyard petting zoo to the poor souls who realize way too late that they've actually adopted hell on hooves.

00:01:08.072 --> 00:01:18.109
By the end of this episode, you're going to either be running for the hills or possibly doubling down on your goat chaos dreams, but at least you'll be fully prepared for the mayhem ahead.

00:01:18.109 --> 00:01:20.322
Either way, don't say we didn't warn you.

00:01:20.322 --> 00:01:21.686
So, debra, let's do this.

00:01:21.966 --> 00:01:22.787
Welcome to the show.

00:01:22.787 --> 00:01:25.534
Yes, oh, my gosh, I love that introduction.

00:01:25.534 --> 00:01:26.394
That's fabulous.

00:01:26.394 --> 00:01:26.715
Thank you.

00:01:26.715 --> 00:01:27.177
So, debra, let's do this.

00:01:27.177 --> 00:01:27.718
Welcome to the show.

00:01:27.718 --> 00:01:28.599
Yes, oh, my gosh, I love that introduction.

00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:30.421
That's fabulous.

00:01:30.421 --> 00:01:31.507
Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

00:01:31.507 --> 00:01:34.599
I was sitting over here trying not to hurt myself laughing because everything you said was so true and so accurate.

00:01:36.043 --> 00:01:42.063
Yes, I've lived it personally, I've lived it vicariously through other people and obviously nobody knows this.

00:01:42.063 --> 00:01:53.769
But I met Debra very recently at a thing called PodFest and we were in the same session, kind of sitting across the room from each other, and there's not a ton of pet podcasters or animal related podcasters at PodFest.

00:01:53.769 --> 00:02:26.651
I know of one other other than myself and Debra and so when she asked a question and she's like I've got a goat podcast, I thought, ooh, I've got to grab that lady after this session and get her on my show, because I think people get themselves in over their heads because they've created this fantasy or they've watched a video on TikTok or something like that and they see people living with goats and other critters and they think that that's what life is like, just what they're seeing in that video, and they don't see all the other stuff that can make life relatively miserable if you're not prepared for it.

00:02:26.893 --> 00:02:31.644
Yeah, that is a fantastic summary of where a lot of people are coming from.

00:02:31.644 --> 00:02:34.091
A lot of times people ask me like, do you have goats?

00:02:34.091 --> 00:02:42.203
And it's like, well, yeah, of course I have goats, and so that means I have people calling me to buy goats and so many people who contact me.

00:02:42.203 --> 00:02:50.955
It is so, so, sadly obvious that the only thing that they know about goats is what they have seen on those entertainment videos.

00:02:50.955 --> 00:02:54.329
You know they don't know what they eat.

00:02:54.329 --> 00:02:56.709
They don't know what they need for housing or fencing.

00:02:56.709 --> 00:03:00.531
They think it can live in their house like a dog that they can house train it.

00:03:00.531 --> 00:03:01.985
It's going to sleep in their bed.

00:03:01.985 --> 00:03:06.251
You know they have completely unrealistic expectations.

00:03:06.860 --> 00:03:13.364
Yeah Well, and even when you know, obviously our goal with this episode is not to tell people that goats are horrible creatures.

00:03:13.364 --> 00:03:15.570
Well, maybe that's not Deborah's goal.

00:03:15.631 --> 00:03:29.150
My goal might be to tell you a little bit that there can be horrible creatures, but I think you can't stress enough with any type of an animal that it's a long-term commitment and you need to know what that commitment is going to entail.

00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:51.614
Because even with adopting out dogs and cats we've run into that in our rescue is that I can tell people over and over again, just as a quick example, a lady that recently adopted a kitten and I said when you get home, don't just open the carrier and let this cat out to run through your 3,000 foot house, because it'll quickly find the worst place, like under your bed, to decide that's where it's going to go potty.

00:03:51.614 --> 00:03:55.170
And you'll discover it in a couple of weeks, after it's become a great habit.

00:03:55.170 --> 00:03:57.287
And of course, that's exactly what she did.

00:03:57.287 --> 00:04:00.490
And then she's wanting to return the cat because it's pooping all over her house.

00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:02.705
Well, why is it all over your house?

00:04:02.705 --> 00:04:12.621
So we're hoping that you listen, listen to us, listen to me, linda.

00:04:12.621 --> 00:04:13.302
We're telling you the truth here.

00:04:13.302 --> 00:04:14.185
I'm trying to save you from a lot of pain.

00:04:14.185 --> 00:04:15.527
And the goat, you know, or whatever the animal is.

00:04:16.048 --> 00:04:17.531
Yeah, exactly, all right.

00:04:17.812 --> 00:04:24.045
So let's let's talk about some of the misconceptions, because you mentioned about living in the house being like a dog.

00:04:24.045 --> 00:04:29.749
So let's dispel the myth that goats are like dogs, because I can see why people might get that idea.

00:04:29.749 --> 00:04:33.892
You know, the person on the video goes out, the goat comes running.

00:04:33.892 --> 00:04:36.194
It follows them around just like a dog.

00:04:36.194 --> 00:04:39.137
But what's the difference that people really need to understand?

00:04:39.137 --> 00:04:55.043
I mean, I know there's tons of them and we're going to get into some of those others separately, but just generally, in your experience, Well, goats are vegetarians, first of all, and contrary to the myth that they will eat anything, including 10 cans, oh yeah like the old cartoons.

00:04:56.189 --> 00:05:11.637
Yeah, they actually have a very sensitive digestive system and they have four stomachs, including a rumen, which is one of the big differences between them and us, and dogs and cats and monogastric animals you know, those of us with one stomach.

00:05:11.637 --> 00:05:14.937
So that rumen is a giant fermentation vat.

00:05:14.937 --> 00:05:18.430
It needs to be working 24-7.

00:05:18.430 --> 00:05:26.733
And so when a goat is out on pasture, where it belongs, it's going to spend a huge part of its stay eating.

00:05:26.733 --> 00:05:30.648
It's basically going to keep eating until its rumen is full.

00:05:30.648 --> 00:05:35.225
So that's why you'll see the left side will sometimes just be huge.

00:05:35.225 --> 00:05:43.206
And then, once their rumen is full, they go lay down somewhere, they burp up everything, they just ate.

00:05:43.206 --> 00:05:48.862
I know, I know, I'm like goats are so lucky they get to eat everything twice.

00:05:48.862 --> 00:05:50.644
Yeah, it's so special.

00:05:51.547 --> 00:05:52.108
Yeah.

00:05:52.108 --> 00:05:55.841
So they burp it all up, you know, one mouthful at a time.

00:05:55.841 --> 00:05:59.468
They chew it all again and then send it back down to their second stomach.

00:05:59.468 --> 00:06:02.944
So how are they going to do that in your house?

00:06:03.184 --> 00:06:03.425
Right.

00:06:03.425 --> 00:06:05.129
And how are they going to even eat all day?

00:06:05.129 --> 00:06:08.129
I mean, can you imagine your average person's yard?

00:06:08.129 --> 00:06:15.434
You know you're going to have to be providing a ton of not cheap food and varieties of things for them to eat.

00:06:15.434 --> 00:06:17.187
It can't just eat your lawn.

00:06:17.187 --> 00:06:21.050
And I think that's another huge thing that people don't understand.

00:06:21.701 --> 00:06:22.766
You're not going to mow your lawn for you.

00:06:22.766 --> 00:06:25.449
They're actually browsers, not grazers.

00:06:25.449 --> 00:06:27.427
And that does not mean they like to shop.

00:06:27.427 --> 00:06:41.773
It means browse is like bushes, and so if goats had their pick of anything in the world to eat, they would walk around eating bushes and baby trees and things like that.

00:06:41.773 --> 00:06:46.221
So you know, one man was just so shocked when I tried to explain to him.

00:06:46.221 --> 00:06:49.949
No, you cannot teach the goat to not eat your rose bushes.

00:06:49.949 --> 00:06:53.867
That would be like trying to teach a dog not to eat steak.

00:06:53.867 --> 00:06:57.538
You know, yeah, like that's just their nature.

00:06:57.858 --> 00:07:04.800
When people say goats will eat anything, they mean that they're going to eat the stuff in the pasture that nobody else is going to eat.

00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.964
They'll eat poison ivy and they're fine with it.

00:07:08.964 --> 00:07:10.485
Isn't that crazy, yeah?

00:07:10.485 --> 00:07:15.490
And so they're going to eat all the floribunda roses that cows completely ignore.

00:07:15.490 --> 00:07:26.533
This is why ranchers love to get them out there, because floribunda roses are so invasive and goats just love them, and so they eat all that stuff.

00:07:26.533 --> 00:07:34.002
So you've got to keep that in mind, the fact that a dog you can feed once or twice a day, and that's it, and that's not how it works with goats Like.

00:07:34.002 --> 00:07:37.110
I don't know anybody who wants to have a hay feeder in their house.

00:07:37.110 --> 00:07:38.822
Yeah, no kidding.

00:07:39.524 --> 00:07:44.084
And just the cost of hay if you haven't priced that out lately, check that out and then storing.

00:07:44.084 --> 00:07:45.009
And it's messy.

00:07:45.009 --> 00:07:54.430
And I didn't realize that because when I bought this house we have a little pasture out front and the size it was plenty big enough for the amount of goats that we had.

00:07:54.430 --> 00:08:00.509
But there's not really other than the stuff that kind of grows up alongside the fence which they made very quick work of.

00:08:00.509 --> 00:08:03.615
There's not a lot of stuff to eat out there for them.

00:08:03.615 --> 00:08:09.389
So we had to move them around and boy, any chance they could get into my expensive landscaping and decimate it.

00:08:09.389 --> 00:08:10.372
They did.

00:08:10.372 --> 00:08:15.213
Yeah, and the poison ivy thing learn that the hard way.

00:08:15.213 --> 00:08:21.000
Because as they're eating that poison ivy, guess where it's getting All over their faces, on their mouths, and guess what they do next.

00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:26.093
They rub it on your bare legs and guess what you have next A nice raging case of poison ivy.

00:08:26.093 --> 00:08:28.747
So yeah, that's fun, that's always fun.

00:08:29.189 --> 00:08:32.669
Yeah, so they have an urge to eat all day long.

00:08:32.669 --> 00:08:47.341
And just because you don't have appropriate goat food doesn't mean that they're not going to check it out and, in the wild, if they take one bite of a plant, that gives them a bellyache they just know.

00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:48.703
I'm never going to go back to that plant.

00:08:48.744 --> 00:08:56.150
Well, in your house, if they just take one bite of a plastic bag that can completely block up their rumen and kill them.

00:08:56.860 --> 00:09:22.927
On my website I have pictures that someone gave me because someone sold her a baby goat bottle fed, which they kept in their house for two months, no problem, thought, everything was just wonderful, and then one day they realized something was off and they took the goat to the vet and when the vet did surgery he removed four or five of the plastic pimples from the Mr Pimple Popper game.

00:09:22.927 --> 00:09:36.006
A plastic bag, hair ties, several balloons, all these things that this baby goat had been eating, that it should not have been eating because these things are not edible.

00:09:36.006 --> 00:09:41.072
But the baby goat was old enough now to be eating solid foods.

00:09:41.072 --> 00:09:57.817
It wasn't happy with just its bottle anymore and because these people were not providing it with hay all day, it went't happy with just its bottle anymore and because these people were not providing it with hay all day, it went looking for something else, and sadly, the baby goat died, and so that's why, when I heard about this, I said can I use these pictures?

00:09:57.857 --> 00:09:59.883
put them on my website so that people can see?

00:09:59.883 --> 00:10:03.552
This is what can happen if you try to keep a goat in the house.

00:10:04.701 --> 00:10:13.889
Yeah, and then, if you think about it, if you're a nice person which I know everybody listening to this podcast is a nice, animal loving person Imagine how you're going to feel when you realize that was 100% your fault.

00:10:13.889 --> 00:10:16.668
I mean, I'm sorry to say it, but that's what we do on Muddy Paws.

00:10:16.668 --> 00:10:19.366
We're telling the truth and it's like it's 100% preventable.

00:10:19.366 --> 00:10:25.292
Well, maybe not, because you can't maybe prevent a balloon that happens to blow into your appropriate outdoor enclosure.

00:10:25.292 --> 00:10:29.674
However, when you've got it in the house, it's just it's your fault, it's not the goat's fault.

00:10:29.674 --> 00:10:31.235
Let's talk about poop Cause.

00:10:31.235 --> 00:10:32.957
That's another thing that I think I didn't realize.

00:10:32.957 --> 00:10:40.386
Number one, how much they poop and how it just kind of comes on out when they're walking along, like it's not like a plan thing, it's not like a walking thing, or am I wrong?

00:10:40.386 --> 00:10:42.250
Did I interpret that incorrectly?

00:10:43.592 --> 00:10:47.400
No, they totally just let the poop fly when the urge hits them.

00:10:47.400 --> 00:10:58.547
You can teach a baby goat to pee on a towel, but you can't teach them the difference between a towel and a pair of blue jeans and an area rug.

00:10:58.547 --> 00:11:02.173
But with poop, no, the poop just flies.

00:11:02.173 --> 00:11:08.813
You know, like you said, they're just, they're walking along and just shooting out, yeah, yeah.

00:11:09.403 --> 00:11:10.919
And and what about emotionally?

00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:16.442
Like you know, you see these again, videos of people loving and cuddling and hugging the baby goats.

00:11:16.442 --> 00:11:20.951
But the goats do they enjoy human affection in the same way, or maybe not even the same?

00:11:20.951 --> 00:11:21.673
Do they enjoy it?

00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.025
And do they give it kind of in a similar way that dogs would, or are they just kind of like get off me?

00:11:32.025 --> 00:11:44.363
Yeah, they're not going to be exactly like dogs, and this is why a lot of people want to get bottle babies, because if you take a baby, that's a newborn and you feed it a bottle and you're the only living creature it knows it's going to bond to you.

00:11:44.363 --> 00:11:50.028
But the downside to that is that they are herd animals, so first of all, you should never have just one.

00:11:50.168 --> 00:11:55.450
Yeah, so that's going into our second myth is you can't just have one Otherwise you can have a miserable goat right.

00:11:56.230 --> 00:12:04.847
Yeah, and then if you are the herd mate, you have to be with it 24, seven, and that's what people don't get.

00:12:04.847 --> 00:12:09.952
You know, they're like so they get the bottle, so they get the bottle baby, and they've got it in their house.

00:12:09.952 --> 00:12:10.953
They're giving it a bottle.

00:12:10.953 --> 00:12:11.673
It gets bigger.

00:12:11.673 --> 00:12:13.996
They're like oh, this is not going to work anymore.

00:12:13.996 --> 00:12:27.809
I need to put you outside in the backyard and it starts screaming nonstop because it is now alone, like mama, just left, left, and it is going to scream nonstop.

00:12:27.809 --> 00:12:31.241
So again, these were some of the things.

00:12:31.241 --> 00:12:32.886
We've had goats since 2002.

00:12:32.886 --> 00:12:34.782
And we learned some of these things the hard way.

00:12:35.222 --> 00:12:38.309
Yeah, so we learned those things the tough way sometimes.

00:12:38.831 --> 00:12:42.847
So yeah, so you're, so you're in for all of the chaos that we talked about so far.

00:12:42.847 --> 00:12:47.826
You're in for the fact that you can't just have one, so you're going to have some kind of a chaos that we talked about so far.

00:12:47.826 --> 00:12:52.336
You're in for the fact that you can't just have one, so you're going to have some kind of a small herd.

00:12:52.336 --> 00:12:54.198
What about the myth that they're pretty easy to care for?

00:12:54.198 --> 00:13:01.000
Because, I mean, I found them relatively easy to care for only from the standpoint of having had horses before and knowing what goes into the hoof trimming and things like that.

00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:04.711
Not that that's easy to do, but where do people get into trouble there?

00:13:05.220 --> 00:13:13.386
You know it sounds easy and in fact the reality is again, because goats are browsers, they actually have really high mineral requirements.

00:13:13.386 --> 00:13:29.686
Their nutrient requirements are very strict and so if you just get a couple castrated males as pets, you might be able to just stick them in the pasture, make sure they've got pasture and hay and water and trim their hooves and stuff.

00:13:29.686 --> 00:13:43.965
But if you're going to have goats for milk, if you're going to have babies, then you're going to have a world of fertility problems if those goats are not getting the proper nutrients, Like goats are not going to come into heat, they're not going to get pregnant, they're not going to stay pregnant.

00:13:43.965 --> 00:13:46.532
That was a problem we had in the beginning.

00:13:47.100 --> 00:13:58.366
We had all kinds of problems and we didn't know that our goats were copper deficient and so many people are like oh, I'm just going to mix my own feed, I don't want to buy a commercial feed.

00:13:58.366 --> 00:14:12.505
And it's like you know what you could do that with cows and sheep because they're naturally grazers, and what you could do that with cows and sheep because they're naturally grazers and so their mineral needs are very different.

00:14:12.505 --> 00:14:13.168
But you can't do that with goats.

00:14:13.168 --> 00:14:17.782
I don't know anyone who's really had productive, healthy goats who didn't use a commercial feed for their milkers, and the pregnant goats.

00:14:17.782 --> 00:14:31.187
You know, for the males that's a whole different world, because an intact male is just producing sperm, so that's not very hard, but I mean they do still need the correct minerals, so they still have to have a goat specific mineral mix.

00:14:31.206 --> 00:14:45.192
So imagine that's like the difference between going to the local PetSmart and getting a good bag of dog food versus the people that go through the trouble of trying to make it from scratch and then having to get the supplemental minerals and mixing those in.

00:14:45.192 --> 00:14:48.691
And you've got to get it right, otherwise you're not going to have healthy animals.

00:14:49.220 --> 00:14:51.009
Yeah, in fact you know what one lady said to me.

00:14:51.009 --> 00:14:52.277
She's like I just don't buy this.

00:14:52.277 --> 00:14:53.682
I make my own dog food.

00:14:53.682 --> 00:14:55.466
I don't understand why I can't make my own goat food.

00:14:55.466 --> 00:14:59.160
And I said your dog is only trying to sustain itself.

00:14:59.160 --> 00:15:04.124
It is not trying to grow babies and make milk for your whole family.

00:15:04.124 --> 00:15:06.164
Like you're asking a lot, it is not trying to grow babies and make milk for your whole family.

00:15:06.164 --> 00:15:19.614
Good point You're asking a lot of these goats and if you're going to ask a lot of them, then you're going to have to give them the kind of nutrition that you can't just get from just mixing up a few grains and herbs and stuff.

00:15:19.614 --> 00:15:21.955
Like it really has to be concentrated minerals.

00:15:22.515 --> 00:15:32.304
Yeah, so you're talking about goats having babies, things like that, and I know this is probably shocking to somebody that keeps goats.

00:15:32.304 --> 00:15:43.928
But if you would explain to people, if people want goat milk and they've got this fantasy that they're going to have goat milk for their family and they're going to make cheese and they're going to make soap and whatever else, can they just get a couple of female goats and just milk them and that's how it works.

00:15:44.409 --> 00:15:48.509
No, you know what it's so funny the first time somebody called me.

00:15:48.509 --> 00:15:53.229
And she called me and said she wanted to buy a couple goats because she wanted to make cheese and stuff.

00:15:53.229 --> 00:15:56.929
And then she said so what do I do to get them to start making milk?

00:15:56.929 --> 00:16:00.830
And I did not even understand the question.

00:16:00.830 --> 00:16:03.267
I was like what?

00:16:03.267 --> 00:16:09.586
And she's like well, I'm going to, I want to make cheese, so what do I have to do to get them to start making milk?

00:16:09.586 --> 00:16:18.282
And then it finally clicked that she didn't know that they had to get pregnant and have babies and that they're actually making the milk for their babies.

00:16:18.282 --> 00:16:20.346
And then you could.

00:16:20.346 --> 00:16:28.686
You know, after the babies are big enough and you know eating enough other foods and stuff, you can start using some of the milk and how long does that last?

00:16:29.379 --> 00:16:30.886
At least a couple months.

00:16:30.886 --> 00:16:35.611
The babies need to be on mom full time for at least a couple months.

00:16:35.611 --> 00:16:42.133
I want my Nigerian dwarf babies to be 20 pounds before I start separating them overnight.

00:16:42.133 --> 00:16:51.472
I start separating them overnight Because by the time they're 20 pounds, they're big enough their tummy's big enough that they can actually consume a decent amount of solid food to help them keep growing.

00:16:51.472 --> 00:17:02.960
But until then, they really need to drink their calories, you know, and get all the protein and calcium that they're only going to get from milk in such a concentrated way, Right.

00:17:02.910 --> 00:17:03.879
So it's kind of like a window of opportunity.

00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:04.897
So basically, just so everybody's getting this right from milk in such a concentrated way, right?

00:17:04.897 --> 00:17:05.178
So it's kind of like a window of opportunity.

00:17:05.178 --> 00:17:07.392
So basically, just so everybody's getting this right.

00:17:07.392 --> 00:17:12.209
If you think you're going to get goat milk, you have to have a goat, you have to have some way to get that goat pregnant.

00:17:12.209 --> 00:17:15.607
Now you've got babies, so now you have multiple goats, which you probably started with.

00:17:15.607 --> 00:17:16.872
Your herd has grown.

00:17:16.872 --> 00:17:19.624
You've got to let them have their share of the milk.

00:17:19.624 --> 00:17:23.290
Then you're going to get a window of opportunity where you can get some milk and milk that goat.

00:17:23.290 --> 00:17:28.348
And then does that go on forever, deborah, or does that dry up, and now we have to start the whole thing over again.

00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.848
Yeah, so it does not go on forever.

00:17:31.848 --> 00:17:42.309
In the commercial world they usually rebreed cows and goats and sheep every year so that they get that high production that you get within the first year.

00:17:42.309 --> 00:17:49.656
Sometimes you know, if you've got some goats with good genetics you can milk them for a couple of years before you breed them again.

00:17:49.656 --> 00:17:58.859
But there is a limit, you know, and then you're going to have to breed them again and have more babies, and I always tell people that you've got to have a plan for those babies you know?

00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:00.282
Yeah, Because you're going to eat.

00:18:00.282 --> 00:18:13.240
You're either going to be keeping them and then it's a matter, are you?

00:18:13.260 --> 00:18:13.844
going to breed those as well.

00:18:13.844 --> 00:18:15.128
And now you've got exponential amount of animals, Are you going?

00:18:15.148 --> 00:18:15.490
to spay and spay.

00:18:15.490 --> 00:18:16.454
I know they use castrate for the males.

00:18:16.454 --> 00:18:17.579
What word do they use for the females Hysterectomy?

00:18:18.940 --> 00:18:20.000
no-transcript.

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:20.748
No, you just fix the boys.

00:18:20.748 --> 00:18:38.978
A hysterectomy in a goat is such a big deal that a lot of times they just do an ovorectomy, and they usually only do that if the goat has some kind of a medical problem where the ovaries have to be removed because they're just cycling nonstop.

00:18:38.978 --> 00:18:40.506
That's a problem too.

00:18:40.506 --> 00:18:49.299
I always tell people if you're just going to have pets, get a couple of castrated males, and a reputable breeder is going to castrate them for you.

00:18:49.299 --> 00:18:51.417
They're not going to give you an intact male.

00:18:52.469 --> 00:18:57.836
Let's talk about that intact male though, because that's the other thing if you want to have babies or whatever.

00:18:57.836 --> 00:19:03.137
So when you don't castrate a goat, what's the fun of that other than the fact that they can reproduce?

00:19:08.704 --> 00:19:10.390
So this is one of the things that really turns people off from goats.

00:19:10.390 --> 00:19:11.311
This is the goat version of like cologne.

00:19:11.311 --> 00:19:19.034
I guess that turns on the ladies, because male goats will pee on themselves, and when I first heard that I thought, oh, I guess they're just messy.

00:19:19.034 --> 00:19:24.477
But no, it actually it's not like your husband missing the toilet or your son or whoever else.

00:19:24.477 --> 00:19:37.516
Yeah, no no, they have directional control and it is completely mind blowing to most people when they first see it, because he can basically turn around and pee on his face.

00:19:38.176 --> 00:19:38.637
And they do.

00:19:38.637 --> 00:19:41.530
And it's very funny to watch, but not great to smell.

00:19:41.791 --> 00:19:43.174
Right, yeah, exactly.

00:19:43.174 --> 00:19:48.405
And this is why, like I really, really, you know, people are like oh, I want all my goats to be bottle fed, so they're friendly.

00:19:48.405 --> 00:19:54.666
I'm like I don't want any of my bucks to be bottle fed, because then they think I'm their girlfriend.

00:19:54.666 --> 00:20:13.397
And so, when you know, I have literally like put a buck in with a doe in a stall in the barn and gone over there to check on him and he comes and jumps up on the door and starts blubbering in my face and I'm just like, ew, get away from me.

00:20:13.498 --> 00:20:14.500
Yeah, it's nasty.

00:20:15.326 --> 00:20:24.934
It is so nasty and it's like it's really the bottle baby, the bottle bucks that do that because they don't have that separation.

00:20:24.934 --> 00:20:27.394
They're like, oh, you're one of me, I'm one of you.

00:20:27.945 --> 00:20:30.664
I'm going to get my stink all over you, yeah, yeah.

00:20:31.626 --> 00:20:37.538
And they'll pee on your does as they're dancing around doing their little pre-mating dance.

00:20:37.538 --> 00:20:46.065
They might pee on her, they might pee on her udder, and so that's where goat milk has a reputation for tasting nasty.

00:20:46.065 --> 00:20:53.605
Because if you let a buck run with your does, that's what they do they pee on them, they rub on them.

00:20:53.605 --> 00:20:58.738
The bucks need to be kept separate from the does to avoid unwanted breedings number one.

00:20:58.738 --> 00:21:06.538
But also, if you're milking your does, the milk is going to be nasty if the bucks are rubbing on them and peeing on them and all this kind of stuff.

00:21:06.898 --> 00:21:11.040
Yeah, so you have to basically set dates and appointments to make that happen, right?

00:21:11.303 --> 00:21:13.150
Exactly If you want to keep everybody separate.

00:21:14.012 --> 00:21:14.093
Yep.

00:21:14.093 --> 00:21:20.576
Well, I don't know about you, debra, but this sounds all like an awesome opportunity.

00:21:20.576 --> 00:21:26.807
Not really an awesome opportunity, not really.

00:21:26.807 --> 00:21:30.057
But you know another thing even if people have gotten to this point and they're like, I still think I want to do this.

00:21:30.057 --> 00:21:33.367
What about the legalities of just having goats in your yard?

00:21:33.949 --> 00:21:39.809
Yeah, you really need to know what the laws are, and not just the laws, but also any covenants you might have.

00:21:39.809 --> 00:21:43.667
You know so many people just assume that it's going to be legal for them.

00:21:43.667 --> 00:21:49.777
My daughter lives in South Dakota on 10 acres right now and it is not legal for her to have more than four goats.

00:21:50.246 --> 00:21:51.048
There's a limit.

00:21:51.347 --> 00:21:58.892
And the other thing is, even if it's legal, then there's still going to be things like noise ordinances that you need to worry about.

00:21:58.892 --> 00:22:23.345
You know, there was a lady years ago who got a weather and a doe from me and after a year and a half she called me up one day in an absolute panic because she had gotten a ticket from the city and they said that they were going to be fining her $100 a day for every day that those goats were still in her yard because they were breaking the noise ordinance.

00:22:23.345 --> 00:22:29.935
And that was a doe, and so this is why I said earlier like, just get a couple of weathers.

00:22:30.605 --> 00:22:32.715
And a weather is a castrated male.

00:22:33.664 --> 00:22:35.211
Yes, a weather is a castrated male.

00:22:35.211 --> 00:22:46.525
A doe is going to come into heat every 21 days and she might be kind of quiet and coy and shy, but she might also be screaming at the top of her lungs.

00:22:46.525 --> 00:22:49.775
She could be a dirty hoe, she could, yeah.

00:22:49.775 --> 00:22:55.557
So she could be screaming at the top of her lungs, hoping that a buck hears her and comes and finds her.

00:22:55.557 --> 00:23:04.759
Yeah, that's what was happening with this lady is that, you know, every three weeks her goat was screaming her head off for about 24 hours.

00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:08.272
After a year and a half, her neighbors were like enough, no more, we can't.

00:23:08.272 --> 00:23:10.026
We can't deal with this, yeah.

00:23:10.046 --> 00:23:14.849
Yeah, and imagine if you're not an acreage and you're really close to your neighbors, it's not going to be appreciated.

00:23:14.849 --> 00:23:15.613
You don't need that.

00:23:15.785 --> 00:23:16.909
And she was in a typical.

00:23:16.909 --> 00:23:18.734
She was in a typical suburban subdivision.

00:23:19.105 --> 00:23:20.209
Yeah, bad choices.

00:23:20.530 --> 00:23:21.292
Bad life choices?

00:23:21.292 --> 00:23:23.174
Yep, I don't.

00:23:23.174 --> 00:23:33.855
I really don't sell goats to people who live in subdivisions anymore and I try to explain to them why and like I really hope you're not going to just go find somebody else to sell you a goat, because this could end really badly.

00:23:34.424 --> 00:23:36.771
Yeah, I know, and hopefully they believe you.

00:23:36.771 --> 00:23:46.398
I spend a lot of time telling people like I understand your intentions are good, but I've been doing this for X number of years and I've heard the same thing and here's how it turns out.

00:23:46.398 --> 00:23:54.517
And you know, if they go find somebody else, then I can't control that, but I highly encourage them to think about it before they go down that path.

00:23:54.517 --> 00:24:01.699
So I find it fascinating that when we talked about this, you said I want to discourage people from having goats and I'm like good, because I don't think they should have them either.

00:24:01.699 --> 00:24:06.394
I want to discourage people from having goats and I'm like good, because I don't think they should have them either, but yet your podcast is called For the Love of Goats.

00:24:06.394 --> 00:24:13.991
So if somebody is still in and they want to try to pull this off successfully, what are some things that they need to consider?

00:24:13.991 --> 00:24:17.015
Like I know, the fencing was a huge issue for us.

00:24:17.015 --> 00:24:19.071
What are some guidelines there?

00:24:19.585 --> 00:24:21.710
So you need goat-proof fencing.

00:24:21.710 --> 00:24:25.478
Which one thing you do not want is barbed wire.

00:24:25.478 --> 00:24:28.954
You know it's made for cattle and horses which have really, really thick skin.

00:24:28.954 --> 00:24:32.375
Goats have really soft, thin skin.

00:24:32.375 --> 00:24:51.275
I actually personally helped two people who had does that ripped open their udder on barbed wire, and one of them took months and months to heal because milk was leaking out of that wound 24-7 as the goat was producing it.

00:24:51.275 --> 00:24:56.715
The other one the family, finally decided to put her down because they could not get it to heal.

00:24:56.715 --> 00:25:03.586
So definitely no barbed wire, because that's just going to injure your goat and it's not going to stop them.

00:25:03.586 --> 00:25:06.675
The goat's going to get ripped up as they're running through it.

00:25:07.365 --> 00:25:09.393
Woven wire is usually very good.

00:25:09.393 --> 00:25:24.615
If you have electric, you need to make sure that it is close enough, like six inches apart, maybe nine inches if you've got big goats, because goats learn a lot from each other and it only takes one to run through there for the others to go.

00:25:24.615 --> 00:25:28.547
Oh, you can do that, Okay.

00:25:28.547 --> 00:25:31.753
And then they do it too and they're herd animals.

00:25:31.753 --> 00:25:34.968
So they're like oh, my buddy, just oh, and they run through.

00:25:34.968 --> 00:25:35.869
They get shocked.

00:25:35.869 --> 00:25:39.097
Oh, that wasn't so bad, I just got shocked as I was running.

00:25:39.097 --> 00:25:39.726
Yeah, it was quick.

00:25:39.726 --> 00:25:41.630
It was quick, it was worth it.

00:25:41.630 --> 00:25:45.378
Yeah, so woven wire is my favorite.

00:25:45.378 --> 00:25:56.955
If you've got big goats, you might want to put a strand of electric across the top so that they don't jump up and then put their feet on top of it and just fall over, Just kind of push down and slide over.

00:25:57.016 --> 00:25:57.318
yeah.

00:25:57.903 --> 00:26:02.829
Yeah, so if you've got the electric on top and they put their feet up there, they're going to get shocked and then they'll just jump back.

00:26:02.829 --> 00:26:05.419
The electric on top and they put their feet up there, they're going to get shocked and then they'll just jump back.

00:26:05.419 --> 00:26:09.529
But with smaller goats like the Nigerian dwarfs or pygmies, woven wire is usually your best option.

00:26:09.971 --> 00:26:12.016
Right and so and you mentioned that.

00:26:12.016 --> 00:26:12.257
You know.

00:26:12.257 --> 00:26:16.134
Just, we've talked about how they're somewhat indiscriminate in what they eat.

00:26:16.134 --> 00:26:24.278
So if you've got apple trees that you think you're going to get apples from, or anything else that's out there is going to be pretty much fair game for them.

00:26:24.278 --> 00:26:26.808
What about vet care, just remembered for them.

00:26:26.808 --> 00:26:31.733
You know a person might say, well, I take my dog once a year and that's all.

00:26:31.733 --> 00:26:33.803
And you know we mentioned the hoof trimming too.

00:26:33.803 --> 00:26:38.255
That's another thing that, yeah, theoretically you can do that yourself if you have the right tools.

00:26:38.255 --> 00:26:44.417
But it's not easy for anyone who goes and pays the $10 or $15 to go get your dog's nails done.

00:26:44.417 --> 00:26:45.891
You're not going to want to do goat nails.

00:26:45.891 --> 00:26:50.269
Like, if you can't do your dog's nails yourself, there ain't no way in hell you're going to do goat feet by yourself.

00:26:50.269 --> 00:26:51.614
That's my opinion.

00:26:51.614 --> 00:26:52.847
It's it was a rassling.

00:26:52.847 --> 00:26:58.511
It was a rassling job and it was a two person job to do it and we only had two goats at the time.

00:26:58.952 --> 00:27:05.446
Yeah, if you don't.

00:27:05.446 --> 00:27:07.453
We have milkers, so we usually put our goats on the milk stand to trim their hooves.

00:27:07.453 --> 00:27:10.744
But if you just have a couple of pet goats, like the castrated males, then you're not going to have a milk stand.

00:27:10.744 --> 00:27:16.478
And so, yeah, it is a two-person job because one person is going to have to hold them while the other person trims.

00:27:16.478 --> 00:27:21.529
So it's not a horribly hard thing to learn, but it is something you have to learn.

00:27:21.529 --> 00:27:27.317
And you do have to do it because you know, just like dog nails, they're going to get way overgrown if you don't do it.

00:27:27.317 --> 00:27:37.566
Unless, you know, unless they're out there climbing on a mountain, because people are like, oh, who trims them in nature?

00:27:37.566 --> 00:27:38.027
Mother nature, remember.

00:27:38.027 --> 00:27:39.571
They're from the desert, so they were walking on sand all the time.

00:27:39.571 --> 00:27:41.596
They're walking on rocks, so they're naturally wearing them down.

00:27:41.596 --> 00:27:46.990
Most of us are putting them on a lush green carpet of grass.

00:27:47.029 --> 00:27:48.574
That does not wear them down at all.

00:27:49.434 --> 00:27:50.738
Yeah, so we have to do it.

00:27:50.738 --> 00:27:55.404
So you asked about the vet, and this is the thing that usually really shocks people.

00:27:55.404 --> 00:28:02.259
I have an application now that people have to fill out before I will even consider talking to them.

00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:10.915
Before I will even consider talking to them and about half the people the answers on here are so bad that they're just completely rejected, because it's obvious.

00:28:10.915 --> 00:28:22.789
They've just seen the TikTok videos and their goat's going to sleep in a dog crate in the laundry room or in their bed, which is totally unacceptable and they don't know what it eats.

00:28:22.789 --> 00:28:25.733
They have no fencing, which is totally unacceptable, and they don't know what it eats.

00:28:25.733 --> 00:28:26.275
They have no fencing.

00:28:26.275 --> 00:28:39.808
You know one woman, in response to what do you have for shelter, she said 10 acres and like, okay, you don't even know what the word shelter means, like your goats.

00:28:39.808 --> 00:28:41.191
Just give me running out there on 10 acres with the coyotes.

00:28:41.211 --> 00:28:47.151
But the thing that really surprises people is that it is very hard to find a goat vet in most areas.

00:28:47.151 --> 00:28:54.951
So there are a few hundred vets who are members of the American Association of Small Ruminant Practitioners.

00:28:54.951 --> 00:28:58.807
Goats are small ruminants and they are considered a minor species.

00:28:58.807 --> 00:29:02.513
Most of your vets only see dogs and cats.

00:29:02.513 --> 00:29:02.954
That's it.

00:29:02.954 --> 00:29:05.239
They know nothing about goats.

00:29:06.365 --> 00:29:17.395
And when I was new, I was really upset with our dog and cat vet that she would not see my goats, and she said, trust me, I would not be doing you any favors by seeing your goats.

00:29:17.395 --> 00:29:19.425
You need to see a goat vet.

00:29:19.425 --> 00:29:52.988
And I am so glad that she had the nerve to stand up to me and to say that, because I some of the worst horror stories I have heard have been from people who somehow convinced their vet and I'm not judging the vets, because I don't know what I would do if I had a hysterical person in my office with a goat and labor or something but some of the worst horror stories I have heard are people who got their dog and cat vet to treat their goat because they just made so many mistakes.

00:29:52.988 --> 00:30:03.626
And so you really have to make sure that there is a vet in your area who not just sees goats but sees enough of them to know what the current research is.

00:30:04.228 --> 00:30:11.470
There's a lot of stuff that you know your vet needs to know to be able to take care of your goats for you, so you definitely want to.

00:30:11.631 --> 00:30:18.873
I would say definitely, look into that before you start looking for goats to see is there a vet that services your area and what is the cost?

00:30:18.873 --> 00:30:28.797
Like you know, we have a great equine vet and you know, because I don't even have a horse trailer, you know, for our, for our rescue horses, and so I mean I could get one if I had to.

00:30:28.797 --> 00:30:39.642
But you know she comes to the, to the rescue ranch, but you know there's a there's a house call fee that goes along with that and that can add up quickly and depending upon if they are the only game in town.

00:30:39.642 --> 00:30:50.711
You know we had a situation with a goat that got very badly injured and you know she wasn't even in like in town trying to find somebody.

00:30:50.730 --> 00:30:51.978
And then there was actually another situation with a sick goat.

00:30:51.978 --> 00:30:57.601
My daughter and I dragged the goat out, put her in the back of my car and I'm calling other places Like can you at least see this goat?

00:30:57.601 --> 00:31:05.818
At the last minute, because my vet was two hours away and this, this animal was in dire need of medical attention and it did not go well.

00:31:05.818 --> 00:31:07.067
She actually died.

00:31:07.067 --> 00:31:14.270
So you got to think all that through and see how accessible that's going to be and what's your backup plan if there's an emergency.

00:31:15.353 --> 00:31:16.355
Yeah, exactly.

00:31:16.355 --> 00:31:24.087
And please, please, please, I beg you, do not believe anyone who tells you that you don't need a vet.

00:31:24.087 --> 00:31:33.311
You can raise your goats on a Facebook group because you don't know what you don't know and you know you think, oh, there's 40,000 people in this group.

00:31:33.311 --> 00:31:37.134
There must be, you know, they can totally tell me everything I need.

00:31:37.134 --> 00:31:38.914
Well, no, they can't.

00:31:38.914 --> 00:31:55.663
You know, I stay away from those groups because I could spend all day long correcting misinformation and if you ask a question and you get 50 people giving you all kinds of different answers, you don't know who's right and who's wrong and in the meantime your goat could die.

00:31:55.663 --> 00:31:56.084
Yeah.

00:31:56.365 --> 00:32:10.335
And just because somebody had luck with something, it's kind of like the old school, like our grandparents told us or, for some of you who are younger, maybe your great-grandparents when the whole seatbelt laws came into play, and or you're insisting your kids in a car seat.

00:32:10.335 --> 00:32:13.567
Well, you kids were never in a car seat and you didn't die.

00:32:13.567 --> 00:32:16.736
It's like you know, I don't know that that's good, good evidence to back up.

00:32:16.736 --> 00:32:26.412
Like just because somebody tried some home remedy on their goat or fed their goat this or that and it didn't die, doesn't mean that that's the right thing and it's going to work well for your goat.

00:32:26.412 --> 00:32:29.268
That's the problem with anecdotal advice like that.

00:32:29.268 --> 00:32:32.856
A couple last things that I want to hit on as far as what you would need to know.

00:32:32.856 --> 00:32:34.729
You meant we talked about the fencing.

00:32:34.729 --> 00:32:36.834
What about, like shelter in space?

00:32:36.834 --> 00:32:40.410
Like does a goat need X number of acres per goat?

00:32:40.410 --> 00:32:42.773
And then what about shelter?

00:32:42.773 --> 00:32:43.736
Do they need a barn?

00:32:43.736 --> 00:32:44.597
Do they need heat?

00:32:44.597 --> 00:32:46.146
Do they need bedding?

00:32:46.768 --> 00:32:47.990
They definitely need a barn.

00:32:47.990 --> 00:32:51.137
This is one of the things I just love about goats.

00:32:51.137 --> 00:32:52.708
I didn't love it in the beginning.

00:32:52.708 --> 00:32:53.451
Nobody does.

00:32:53.451 --> 00:32:55.355
If they get wet, they think they're going to melt.

00:32:57.445 --> 00:33:02.978
So we thought like, oh, we bought this horse farm and it's got this big, gorgeous horse barn.

00:33:02.978 --> 00:33:04.088
We thought that would be fine.

00:33:04.088 --> 00:33:08.159
You know, like horses, you let them out in the morning, you bring them into the barn at night.

00:33:08.159 --> 00:33:23.290
And the reality was that every time you had like three little tiny sprinkles of water, the goats were all out there screaming bloody murder, because they thought they were gonna melt and they're, like you know, climbing at the gate like, let us in, let us're going to melt.

00:33:23.290 --> 00:33:38.236
And so we learned very quickly that like, oh, okay, well, we need to have three-sided run-in pasture shelters so if it rains, the goats can just run in there and we don't have to go put them in the barn just to take them out 15 minutes later, you know when it stops raining.

00:33:38.236 --> 00:33:51.219
And so you definitely need shelter for your goats because also, they can wind up getting chilled and get hypothermia and get sick if it's cold and it rains on them.

00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:58.577
Having a barn that you can close up might be really important in terms of predators, depending on where you live, you know.

00:33:58.577 --> 00:34:00.530
So it doesn't have to be.

00:34:00.530 --> 00:34:08.351
You know, if you've only got two or three goats, you can have a small three-sided shelter, depending on what your fencing situation is like and your predator situation.

00:34:08.351 --> 00:34:10.958
You might be able to need to close that up at night.

00:34:10.958 --> 00:34:13.414
You know, if you've got pasture shelters, that's fine.

00:34:13.414 --> 00:34:21.239
They might work most of the time, but there might still be times that you need to put them in a barn that can be closed for whatever reason.

00:34:22.826 --> 00:34:24.449
What about breeds of goats?

00:34:24.449 --> 00:34:26.273
I mean breed does matter right.

00:34:27.358 --> 00:34:28.682
If you're going to decide to move forward.

00:34:28.775 --> 00:34:34.682
I mean, obviously, if you're going to do it for dairy purposes, then obviously you're going to investigate dairy breeds.

00:34:34.682 --> 00:34:42.880
But what about just a person that wants maybe two or three goats as pets, because they've got the space, they're willing to do the shelter, they're willing to do the upkeep?

00:34:42.880 --> 00:34:45.804
Which ones make good, just pets to have?

00:34:46.375 --> 00:34:50.418
Those would be usually the smaller breeds, like the Nigerian dwarfs or pygmies.

00:34:50.418 --> 00:34:53.222
A lot of people use those interchangeably.

00:34:53.222 --> 00:34:56.284
So many people contact me and say, hey, do you have pygmies?

00:34:56.284 --> 00:35:03.532
And I'm like, if you're asking if I have small goats, yes, they're small, but pygmy is a specific breed and I have Nigerian dwarfs.

00:35:05.934 --> 00:35:06.717
Pygmies, historically, were a meat goat.

00:35:06.717 --> 00:35:12.789
Nobody in the US is going to breed a little goat for meat, regardless of what its meat to bone ratio is.

00:35:12.789 --> 00:35:17.585
You know they want the big boars and kikos and stuff like that.

00:35:17.585 --> 00:35:27.655
Nigerian dwarfs are a dairy goat and once you know about the difference between dairy goats and meat goats, then you're like, oh, there's the big difference between their body type.

00:35:27.655 --> 00:35:33.898
And the other thing that most people don't know is that the Nigerian dwarfs are the ones with all the flashy colors.

00:35:33.898 --> 00:35:39.998
Pygmies actually have very strict color standards and they are not allowed to have blue eyes.

00:35:39.998 --> 00:35:44.335
So a lot of people are like, oh, I want spots and blue eyes and all this.

00:35:44.335 --> 00:35:56.184
Well, then you want a Nigerian dwarf and getting castrated males as pets works really great, because then it's not going to come into heat every three weeks like a doe, they're not going to pee on themselves like a buck.

00:35:56.184 --> 00:36:00.445
And if you just want pets, then that's all you need.

00:36:00.445 --> 00:36:03.164
Plus, they're not going to be hormonal, you know.

00:36:03.164 --> 00:36:05.362
So weathers really do make the best pets.

00:36:06.295 --> 00:36:10.059
And what's your best advice as far as finding a good pet goat?

00:36:10.059 --> 00:36:11.300
What's your best advice as far as finding a good pet goat?

00:36:11.300 --> 00:36:19.527
Is there a National Goat Breeders Association that you would go to, or is it okay to get a goat from a rescue, because we have had them come through ours?

00:36:20.168 --> 00:36:28.496
You want to make sure that you're getting your goats from somebody who's reputable either a reputable breeder or a reputable rescue.

00:36:28.496 --> 00:36:37.181
Do not go to Craigslist or Facebook or whatever and just buy from the first person that says I've got goats for sale.

00:36:37.181 --> 00:36:49.896
I don't know if you've talked about this before, but there are scammers out there, so there are people who wind up sending several hundred dollars to somebody that doesn't even have goats because they've created fake websites and Facebook pages and stuff like this.

00:36:50.036 --> 00:36:54.606
But let's assume that you've moved past that and you actually get goats from somebody.

00:36:54.606 --> 00:37:00.981
So like big red flags would be somebody selling you intact males.

00:37:00.981 --> 00:37:04.128
There are some people who just want to get their male kids.

00:37:04.128 --> 00:37:06.280
Usually they're raising for dairy.

00:37:06.280 --> 00:37:15.884
They just want to get their male kids gone as soon as possible because they want 100% of the milk for the dairy, and so I don't know if people still use this.

00:37:15.884 --> 00:37:18.702
People would call them dripping wet, buckling sales.

00:37:18.702 --> 00:37:19.704
You know where.

00:37:19.704 --> 00:37:21.648
It's like $25 or $50.

00:37:21.795 --> 00:37:31.664
You come and you get this baby buck that maybe it's had colostrum from its mom, maybe not, but let's say they did get colostrum, and now you take them home.

00:37:31.664 --> 00:37:35.943
Well, now you're going to be responsible for castrating them.

00:37:35.943 --> 00:37:37.507
It is not going to be cheap.

00:37:37.507 --> 00:37:37.827
You know.

00:37:37.827 --> 00:37:42.967
A vet is going to charge you, like they would charge you for spaying or neutering a dog or cat.

00:37:42.967 --> 00:37:57.885
Usually it's going to be expensive and if you don't want it to have horns which is another discussion, it can be very dangerous around small children Then you would have to pay a vet to do that.

00:37:57.885 --> 00:37:59.088
So that's going to be more money.

00:37:59.088 --> 00:38:02.099
Again, a reputable breeder would do that for you.

00:38:02.099 --> 00:38:06.815
The other thing is just talk to them and ask them questions.

00:38:06.815 --> 00:38:09.480
If they don't want to answer your questions, walk away.

00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:16.070
If somebody is going to sell you bottle babies, make sure they take a bottle.

00:38:16.695 --> 00:38:26.045
Some of these people are just lazy and they leave the kid on mom until the day it gets picked up and then they take it away from mom and hand it to the person.

00:38:26.045 --> 00:38:29.565
And most people have heard of nipple confusion in human babies.

00:38:29.565 --> 00:38:34.626
Well, it's the same thing, but it's the opposite with the baby goats.

00:38:34.626 --> 00:38:43.083
They've been nursing on mom their whole life and they have no clue what to do with a bottle and they act like you're trying to poison them.

00:38:43.083 --> 00:38:44.983
They scream and they fight.

00:38:45.875 --> 00:38:51.242
Some people will say, oh, they're three weeks old, they're eating, they don't need a bottle anymore.

00:38:51.242 --> 00:38:54.141
And then they call me when the kid is half dead.

00:38:54.141 --> 00:39:00.824
They need milk for at least two months and with the Nigerians they need to be at least 20 pounds.

00:39:00.824 --> 00:39:04.373
So it's just really sad.

00:39:04.373 --> 00:39:09.322
So you really have to educate yourself before you get the goat.

00:39:09.322 --> 00:39:22.318
And I tell people, if somebody tells you it's bottle fed, tell them oh, can we give it a bottle when I come to pick them up.

00:39:22.318 --> 00:39:24.242
And if that kid does not grab the nipple all by itself and start sucking.

00:39:24.242 --> 00:39:25.445
It's not a bottle baby.

00:39:25.445 --> 00:39:42.382
It's hard for me, as somebody who's been doing it for 23 years, when somebody has never, like they just became a goat owner today and they're contacting me like I've had these kids since yesterday and they still they've taken like maybe two or three ounces of milk.

00:39:44.126 --> 00:39:47.340
Like it's really sad, yeah yeah, and it's very frustrating.

00:39:47.340 --> 00:39:51.139
I mean we run into that with the bottle baby kittens that we get in.

00:39:51.139 --> 00:39:54.505
You know, it's like there's a little bit of a technique to it.

00:39:54.505 --> 00:40:04.641
But yeah, they, you know they're some some take to it pretty quickly and others fight it and you end up having to tube feed them and doing all these other things just to just to keep them alive.

00:40:04.641 --> 00:40:18.000
And when you're inexperienced in knowing how to handle them, knowing the angle, knowing how to you know the little tricks that you learn because you've been doing it for 10 years of transitioning them, then it's super frustrating and you feel like a big old failure.

00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:20.746
It's not a position you want to be in, for sure.

00:40:20.746 --> 00:40:22.615
So yeah.

00:40:23.077 --> 00:40:23.396
Deborah.

00:40:23.396 --> 00:40:28.065
So my last big question for you is why?

00:40:28.065 --> 00:40:29.027
Why do you do it?

00:40:29.027 --> 00:40:30.028
Why did you do it?

00:40:30.028 --> 00:40:31.380
Why have you been doing it for 20 years?

00:40:31.380 --> 00:40:40.782
And then I want you to tell us about the podcast and other resources that you might refer us to if we decide we actually do love goats and want to go down this path.

00:40:41.344 --> 00:40:41.684
Yeah.

00:40:41.684 --> 00:40:48.376
So a lot of people ask me like when they see all of my stuff and they're like this sounds really complicated, why do you have goats?

00:40:48.376 --> 00:40:52.753
And the reality is because they are just the coolest animals ever.

00:40:52.753 --> 00:40:53.635
They really are.

00:40:53.635 --> 00:40:57.467
You know, they do tend to be more emotional than most animals.

00:40:57.467 --> 00:40:59.574
They've got quite the personality.

00:40:59.574 --> 00:41:04.384
Like every one of them is an individual and I was.

00:41:04.403 --> 00:41:09.099
I originally was in love with the goat cheese and that was what got my husband involved.

00:41:09.099 --> 00:41:17.280
You know, originally it was me and the girls doing it and then, once they went off to college, I told my husband I'm like hey, if you still want goat cheese, you're going to have to learn how to do this.

00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:22.963
And so it was a really fast yes for him because he didn't want to lose the goat cheese.

00:41:22.963 --> 00:41:25.963
So that's a really big part of it there.

00:41:25.963 --> 00:41:28.521
So they're just terrific animals.

00:41:28.521 --> 00:41:34.896
Like most people are really surprised at how they just totally fall in love with them and like that was the thing.

00:41:35.257 --> 00:41:40.027
You know, we never had a buck live past the age of three.

00:41:40.027 --> 00:41:42.403
For the first five years we had goats, oh wow.

00:41:42.403 --> 00:41:46.704
And our does were two thirds of our does were not getting pregnant.

00:41:46.704 --> 00:41:56.467
They weren't staying pregnant, they were miscarrying at all stages, and giving up just was not even an option for me, because I had just fallen in love with them so much.

00:41:56.467 --> 00:42:00.545
I was just like no, I got to figure out what's wrong, so we can take care of this.

00:42:00.545 --> 00:42:12.541
And yeah, by the time I figured out what I needed to do to keep my goats alive, I had enough information to write a 300 page book, which was how I suddenly became a goat expert in a lot of people's lives.

00:42:13.655 --> 00:42:17.005
Yeah, because you teach classes on goat stuff at university, right?

00:42:17.594 --> 00:42:24.860
Yeah, I teach for the University of Massachusetts, amherst online, and so I have had students all over the world who've taken that course.

00:42:24.860 --> 00:42:35.077
And then I also have the Goat Academy where I have online courses and our is GOATS 365, which includes access to the courses.

00:42:35.077 --> 00:42:43.925
And then we have meetings on Zoom three times a month where we all get together and people ask questions and they talk about like what's happening with their GOATS today.

00:42:44.635 --> 00:42:52.525
So those classes in the groups, are they for beginners, like I guess I'm trying to decide, like, if I decided, okay, I do want to pursue this GOAT thing.

00:42:52.525 --> 00:42:53.800
I don't currently have any.

00:42:53.800 --> 00:43:01.362
Would you advise that I take one of the courses first Seems to make sense to me, and then it sounds like there's a group and follow on that I can stay in.

00:43:01.362 --> 00:43:02.786
Is that how that works?

00:43:02.786 --> 00:43:03.007
Yeah?

00:43:03.047 --> 00:43:03.728
definitely.

00:43:03.728 --> 00:43:24.766
I mean, really the best thing is to join GOATS 365, because then you can start taking the courses Like you could start with like goat basics to learn all about the housing and the fencing, and then, as you're going through that course, you can also come to the meetings and say, okay, well, this is you know, and show us pictures Like this is what my barn looks like.

00:43:24.766 --> 00:43:25.731
What do you think of this?

00:43:25.731 --> 00:43:26.494
What do you?

00:43:26.494 --> 00:43:26.675
You know?

00:43:26.675 --> 00:43:28.963
Here's my pasture, this is the fencing.

00:43:29.626 --> 00:43:37.387
No book and no course can tell you a hundred percent of everything you need to know to make it work on your farm with your goats and your land.

00:43:37.387 --> 00:43:43.077
And so that's the beauty of the membership is that people can come in there and they can share pictures.

00:43:43.077 --> 00:43:45.644
They can share video even and we've had people do that.

00:43:45.644 --> 00:43:47.336
You know, they're out in their barn.

00:43:47.336 --> 00:43:55.744
We actually have one member who joins every single meeting from his barn and a lot of people wind up saving hundreds or even thousands of dollars.

00:43:55.744 --> 00:44:00.963
You know, because, like they, just some people just assume like, oh, we need to have concrete floor in our barn.

00:44:00.963 --> 00:44:04.798
No, you don't, dirt floor is fine, yeah.

00:44:05.780 --> 00:44:10.460
So, and then we'll put some links in the show notes for people to get to the 365.

00:44:10.460 --> 00:44:12.226
How is the podcast different?

00:44:12.226 --> 00:44:16.666
I mean, I know a podcast is a podcast and a class is a class, but because that's a lot to manage.

00:44:17.155 --> 00:44:18.998
This is like beyond a full-time job.

00:44:18.998 --> 00:44:21.585
I have this stuff on my.

00:44:21.585 --> 00:44:23.168
Yeah, I worked 60 hours last week.

00:44:23.168 --> 00:44:26.226
I have software on my computer that tracks everything I do.

00:44:26.226 --> 00:44:31.443
It is more than a full-time job what I do and the podcast.

00:44:31.443 --> 00:44:33.226
I love doing the podcast so much.

00:44:33.226 --> 00:44:37.063
What it has been so we're celebrating our fifth anniversary this month.

00:44:37.063 --> 00:44:37.987
I'm so excited.

00:44:37.987 --> 00:44:48.110
What it has been up to this point is me interviewing a lot of vet professors and researchers about emerging research in the field of goats.

00:44:48.416 --> 00:44:53.697
When I got started 23 years ago, people literally thought goats and sheep were almost the same.

00:44:53.697 --> 00:44:55.583
They thought their nutritional needs were the same.

00:44:55.583 --> 00:44:58.840
They thought that you treated them for parasites the same.

00:44:58.840 --> 00:45:02.025
I mean, it's just unreal.

00:45:02.025 --> 00:45:05.478
This is why my goats were dying and not getting pregnant.

00:45:06.480 --> 00:45:16.384
We had so many problems 20 years ago because we didn't know and that's why I found the answers at that time by digging into the scientific journals.

00:45:16.384 --> 00:45:29.782
I was reading stuff like veterinary parasitology and things like that and finding the stuff that was brand new back then and, crazy enough, stuff that was discovered 15, 10 years ago.

00:45:29.782 --> 00:45:31.085
They still don't know it today.

00:45:31.085 --> 00:45:39.161
If a vet sees mostly dogs and cats and maybe a few horses, they're not going to do their continuing education on goats.

00:45:39.161 --> 00:45:50.202
So, even though, like we started out being totally for goat owners, I've heard more and more that we're getting a lot of vets listening and vet students because of the quality of our guests.

00:45:50.202 --> 00:45:53.268
Like we're getting down to the really nitty gritty here.

00:45:53.268 --> 00:45:57.603
I probably have 10 episodes on worms and goats.

00:45:57.603 --> 00:45:59.467
Don't get me started on that subject.

00:46:00.615 --> 00:46:02.159
Yeah, we didn't even get started on that.

00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:05.106
Like worms, I mean, I tell people I have a.

00:46:05.106 --> 00:46:10.635
My parasite course is like seven or eight hours, I believe it, because it's like really detailed.

00:46:10.635 --> 00:46:15.324
There's just so much that people need to know and it's so much more complicated.

00:46:15.324 --> 00:46:29.882
So many of us and I know I was the same way Okay, we go to zoos and we see these animals in a small pen and we think that that's what we're going to do with our animals, right, we're going to put our goats in a small pen and it's all going to be good.

00:46:30.563 --> 00:46:36.579
And the reality is, if you do that, you're forcing your goats to eat from their toilet and so you are going to have worm problems.

00:46:36.579 --> 00:46:42.762
And they actually do have a lot of worm problems in zoos because they keep them in these small pens.

00:46:42.762 --> 00:46:46.369
So controlling worms is not about drugs.

00:46:46.369 --> 00:46:51.907
It's all about management and pasture rotation or learning how to do a dry lot.

00:46:51.907 --> 00:46:56.045
So that's another thing, too, that you need to learn about.

00:46:56.045 --> 00:47:03.748
Ideally, if you can learn this stuff before you get goats, you will save yourself so much money, so much heartache.

00:47:03.748 --> 00:47:08.842
I love working with people who are new and goat shopping and planning everything out.

00:47:08.842 --> 00:47:10.425
That is the ideal.

00:47:10.425 --> 00:47:11.547
Goat shopping and planning everything out.

00:47:11.547 --> 00:47:11.947
That is the ideal.

00:47:11.947 --> 00:47:20.878
And when I work with people like that, they don't have problems, you know, because they avoid problems.

00:47:20.878 --> 00:47:21.237
They, you know.

00:47:21.237 --> 00:47:22.380
They get the right housing, the right fencing.

00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:24.385
They don't do the things wrong when it comes to worms.

00:47:24.385 --> 00:47:27.637
So all these problems are not inevitable.

00:47:27.637 --> 00:47:29.202
It doesn't have to be hard.

00:47:29.202 --> 00:47:30.726
It's like anything else.

00:47:30.726 --> 00:47:32.762
You just have to have the right information Right.

00:47:33.304 --> 00:47:50.420
All of these things are things, and I think you made the key point there that I want to leave people with is they're fantastic animals, they're funny, they're charming, but they can be a lot of work and to give them their best lives requires a lot of forethought to be able to pull it off successfully.

00:47:50.420 --> 00:48:11.766
And so by taking courses, by doing your research whether it's listening to the podcast or joining the groups and really learning what you're getting yourself into before, because that was my mistake is that I thought, oh, because somebody had goats here before that I could just get my own goats and kind of do what that person did and, without necessarily knowing, did his goats die off on a regular basis?

00:48:11.766 --> 00:48:17.704
And the goats that I was seeing there were his fifth set of goats that he had, for all I know.

00:48:17.704 --> 00:48:23.806
And so I just I went into it dumb and I made a lot of mistakes, and it was to the detriment of the poor goats.

00:48:23.806 --> 00:48:26.860
We lost one to barber pole worms.

00:48:26.860 --> 00:48:29.304
We lost one to a cougar.

00:48:29.824 --> 00:48:32.009
Now that who knew there was a cougar?

00:48:32.009 --> 00:48:32.769
I didn't, you know.

00:48:32.769 --> 00:48:42.614
I mean, I knew we had coyotes and we had coverage for that, but when you've got a cougar that jumps over your fence and literally takes an 80 pound young goat over into your neighbor's yard, you know.

00:48:42.614 --> 00:48:48.443
So then we had to build like this dog cage thing to to almost like a little prison to put them in at night to protect them.

00:48:48.443 --> 00:48:50.748
From that, I quickly realized that the goats were not for me.

00:48:50.748 --> 00:49:00.195
I wasn't prepared going into it, and then I realized pretty quickly that I wasn't going to be able to create an environment where that was going to work with everything else I was doing in the rescue.

00:49:00.195 --> 00:49:06.898
So we rehomed the remaining goats to people who could manage that, but it's not something that I would wish on anybody else.

00:49:07.500 --> 00:49:13.679
So hopefully you learned from our lessons here today and, debra, I really appreciate you being here.

00:49:13.679 --> 00:49:24.119
I know that you come to this game with a lot of experience and a lot of knowledge and I hope people who are still thinking in the back of their heads like I still want to do it that they check out those links.

00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:33.516
We're going to put the show notes, take your courses, listen to the podcast and do that well before they go goat shopping, if that is such a thing.

00:49:33.516 --> 00:49:37.545
But thank you so much for giving us your time and your expertise today.

00:49:37.545 --> 00:49:39.338
Yeah, thank you, it was a lot of fun.

00:49:40.623 --> 00:49:41.224
All right, everybody.

00:49:41.224 --> 00:49:46.219
Thank you once again for listening to another episode of Muddy Paws and Hairballs.

00:49:46.219 --> 00:49:47.342
We will see you next week.

00:49:47.342 --> 00:49:50.476
Thanks for listening to Muddy Paws and Hairballs.

00:49:50.476 --> 00:50:00.079
Be sure to visit our website at muddypawsandhairballscom for more resources and be sure to follow this podcast on your favorite podcast app so you'll never miss a show.

00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:05.000
And hey, if you like this show, text someone right now and say I've got a podcast recommendation.

00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.436
You need to check the show out and tell them to listen and let you know what they think.

00:50:08.436 --> 00:50:12.503
Don't forget to tune in next week and every week for a brand new episode.

00:50:12.503 --> 00:50:16.750
And if you don't do anything else this week, give your pets a big hug from us.

Deborah Niemann